Windows XP, Anyone?

Michael Griffin wrote ....

<snip> Most people would be hard pressed to name 35 things of any kind they know about Windows. A lot of people want to use Windows because they figure they won't have to know anything about computers that way. <snip>

Jeez Michael, you think an XP MCSE doesn't know how to lock down his own system? Are you suggesting that Linux administrators are more capable? more intelligent? better people?

To suggest a great disservice has been created by suggesting Windows is "easy", is a ridiculous statement. You're second statement is correct, Windows is EXTREMELY complex. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an fool. Even my 80 year old mother (who is XP proficient) realizes how complicated Windows really is underneath those pretty images.

You suggest that "Very few IT people really know much about Windows other than how to click on menus to setup a typical network ...." At least they can do it, which is more than what would happen if you handed Linux to them and asked them to perform the same functions.

OK ,,,, let's assume that at midnight tomorrow night, every MS OS and app where to disappear .... think the preponderance of Linux IT pro's and Linux apps could fill the void ?? How long do you think it would take .... without some central Linux organization?

Linux will NEVER become as accepted as Windows. It doesn't have the market clout, visible presence, financial backing, EULA's, NDA's, and a TON of lawyers, necessary to make it a world wide success.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but unless some large unifying force brings the Linux community together, it'll never happen.

Mark Hill
MS Windows eXPert http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/
 
M

Michael Griffin

On November 23, 2002 02:29 pm, Mark Hill wrote: <clip>
> Michael Griffin wrote ....
> <snip>
> Most people would be hard pressed to name 35 things of any kind they
> know about Windows. A lot of people want to use Windows because they
> figure they won't have to know anything about computers that way.
> <snip>
>
> Jeez Michael, you think an XP MCSE doesn't know how to lock down his own
> system?


How did you derive your question from my statements you quoted? I don't believe I said anything about an "XP MCSE". I believe I said "most people". I believe I also said that a lot of people figure that if they use Windows, they don't have to know anything about their computer. This sort of person would be hard pressed to name 35 things of any sort about Windows, let alone 35 security settings. However, for this sort of person, ignorance is bliss and it doesn't inhibit them from installing systems using Windows in an industrial setting. They just feed the CD-ROMs in when they are asked for them. In what state they may leave those 35 settings is a good question.

> Are you suggesting that Linux administrators are more capable? more
> intelligent? better people?
When I saw this, I went back and read my original message quite carefully. I didn't find any suggestion in it that Linux administrators were better than Windows administrators. Indeed, I didn't find any mention of Linux at all.

> To suggest a great disservice has been created by suggesting Windows is
> "easy", is a ridiculous statement.
> You're second statement is correct, Windows is EXTREMELY complex.
<clip>

I'm pleased to see that you agree that Windows is quite complex. However, I am not really sure why you feel it is unwise to point this out to people.

> OK ,,,, let's assume that at midnight tomorrow night, every MS OS and
> app where to disappear .... think the preponderance of Linux IT pro's
> and Linux apps could fill the void ??
> How long do you think it would take .... without some central Linux
> organization?
<clip>

I trimmed a few paragraphs where you vented your spleen about Linux. I think we get the point. You don't like Linux. I'm not quite sure just how that subject came up though or how it addresses any of the questions that were raised.

However, I will repeat what I think were the salient points of my original message:

1) Most people really know very little about Windows. Clicking on icons to use their e-mail or PLC software all day doesn't provide them with any special knowledge.

2) Many people seem to have the impression that there is really nothing to know in order to set up and configure a Windows operating system. You just click on a few buttons and answer "OK" to any and all questions.

3) Properly configuring any operating system requires more knowledge than what you get from just using it all day. Few people have this knowledge.

I'm not sure quite what it is you disagree with about this. My own conclusion from the above would be that few of the people who are selling their services installing computer systems in industry are capable of doing a proper job on the Windows configuration. My own observations of projects carried out by several companies would seem to bear this out. Asking typical IT people for assistance in these situations is often of little help. Many of the sort of problems you need to solve in the plant are not the sort of problems they have to deal with in the office. They may know a good deal more than the typical person, but they don't necessarily know what it is you happen to need. Someone who knows both Windows *and* how to use it in industrial applications is rather rare. It is worth while hiring or otherwise obtaining this sort of expertise to see the job is done properly. This is no doubt true for any operating system.

************************
Michael Griffin
London, Ont. Canada
************************
 
Mark Hill:
> OK ,,,, let's assume that at midnight tomorrow night, every MS OS and
> app where to disappear .... think the preponderance of Linux IT pro's
> and Linux apps could fill the void ??
> How long do you think it would take .... without some central Linux
> organization?


Actually, in the event of such wide-spread emergency, the distributed nature would be a benefit. Any central organization faced with such an unprecedented load would collapse, especially under the circumstances (impaired communications systems and the like). The LUGs might survive, at least some of them, hopefully enough to sort things out.

Let's hope we never find out.

I was going to write here that it's quite unlikely, but I can think of at least a couple of scenarios that could have essentially that outcome.

Jiri
--
Jiri Baum <[email protected]> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jirib
MAT LinuxPLC project --- http://mat.sf.net --- Machine Automation Tools
 
R

Ralph Mackiewicz

Although this is now WAY off topic:

> I think the control system drafting market is ripe for a big change
> also.

There are companies with vision that are addressing these things. Check out Instrument Design Works at:
http://www.automating-automation.com/

Regards,
Ralph Mackiewicz
SISCO, Inc.
 
J

Joe Jansen/ENGR/HQ/KEMET/US

<grin> I love posts like this........

>>>>>>
On November 25, 2002, Mark Hill wrote: Michael Griffin wrote ....

<snip> Most people would be hard pressed to name 35 things of any kind they know about Windows. A lot of people want to use Windows because they figure they won't have to know anything about computers that way. <snip>

Jeez Michael, you think an XP MCSE doesn't know how to lock down his own system? Are you suggesting that Linux administrators are more capable? more intelligent? better people?
<<<<<

Nothing of the sort! Instead, what (I assume, Michael can correct me if I mis-speak) he is suggesting is that an MCSE knows as much about Windows as a RHCE (Red Hat certified enigineer) know about linux. the difference is that many windows networks are "administered" by people who do not even have this level of training. They assume that since windows is "so easy", no training is required.

Plus, I am sure that you will agree that since Linux administration is somewhat more difficult than windows, the people who care for linux systems are by necessity more informed __IN GENERAL__ than the average windows user.

>>>>>
To suggest a great disservice has been created by suggesting Windows is "easy", is a ridiculous statement. You're second statement is correct, Windows is EXTREMELY complex. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an fool. Even my 80 year old mother (who is XP proficient) realizes how complicated Windows really is underneath those pretty images.
<<<<<

And yet it is amazing how many people figure that turning on directory sharing and print sharing, and plugging their cable modem together makes them a network administrator. The sad thing is, that in a sense, it does make them one, insofar as they are now responsible for taking care of their 'network'. The bad thing is that these people have no concept of patches, service packs, upgrades, etc. Windows makes it so easy, and propogates this idea of ease of use to the point of making people complacent. Think of Code Red, nimdA, etc. and tell me again how well every windows admin is taking care of their system.

MS Compounds this problem by rolling stuff up into service packs that historically have been known to break other parts of the system. This has instilled a fear in many organizations of immediately installing the SP's. This creates a no-win situation, which can be avoided in the Open Source world because of the different philosophy of patching. Note that in this situation, the epertise of the end user is irrelevant. Ie: MS gives a SP that you know will break a critical app of yours. You may be the best win admin in the history of time, but that is not going to change the fact that this SP will break you system. If the same level of expertise is present in the Linux admin, he can fix it. If he isn't that skilled with the code, he can still get a modification to the patch (from the patch author) that will work around it. MS has never been responsive to that degree.

>>>>>
You suggest that "Very few IT people really know much about Windows other than how to click on menus to setup a typical network ...." At least they can do it, which is more than what would happen if you handed Linux to them and asked them to perform the same functions.
<<<<<

again, if you take a windows person and stick them in front of Linux, they will be just as effective as someone who has never used windows who tries to set up a windows network.

>>>>>
OK ,,,, let's assume that at midnight tomorrow night, every MS OS and app where to disappear .... think the preponderance of Linux IT pro's and Linux apps could fill the void ?? How long do you think it would take .... without some central Linux organization?
<<<<<

This type of change does not happen that fast. But even if it did (I am trying to come up with a scenario, but am still failing), why not? And who says we cannot have a central Linux org? Red Hat seems to be doing well in that space. The difference tho, is that unlike windows, we can have a central org, and a wide channel of alternatives as well. It is not an either/or situation.

>>>>>
Linux will NEVER become as accepted as Windows. It doesn't have the market clout, visible presence, financial backing, EULA's, NDA's, and a TON of lawyers, necessary to make it a world wide success.
<<<<<

The same was said of AT&T, IBM, Standard Oil, Digital Equipment, etc. Markets change. MS is already starting to crack at the seams with trying to support itself. Licensing 6, the new Office issues, pricing, etc. have all started to erode their user base. Read ZDNet, many orgs are looking to alternatives, and many foreign countries are outright eliminating MS platform from their governmental systems. Ironically, the EULA's, NDA's, and lawyers seem to be hurting their cause, instead of helping. After all, what are you going to do, sue me into using windows? What good are those lawyers going to do for gaining market acceptance? I know of at least one org locally that uses only Linux equipment. No windows whatsoever. When BSA trolls came sniffing around, he was deliberately uncooperative to bait them into doing an audit. When they showed up, he tells me it was a fairly amusing, if altogether brief, experience. I am sure "dumb lawyer tricks" like that are not helping promote the warm, friendly image of MS. I don't anticipate that this run-in with EULA, NDA, and lawyers will cause him to jump up and start installing MS-anything....

>>>>>
Sorry to bust your bubble, but unless some large unifying force brings the Linux community together, it'll never happen.

Mark Hill MS Windows eXPert http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/
<<<<<

Actually, I think the linux 'bubble' is still fairly intact. Linux may not take over the desktop at 'midnight tomorrow', but the fact that Red Hat has changed it's position of desktop linux is pretty interesting, IMHO. Since RedHat is actually a profitable company (last I checked, anyway) and has maintained the linux was not consumer and desktop ready, many other linux advocates were willing to admit this. Since RH has made the business decision to approach the desktop market with the latest improvements, I think you may start to see the tide begin to change.

Will Windows/Microsoft go away? I seriously doubt it. IBM, AT&T, etc are still around, after all. Will Ms and Windows lose their market dominance and have to compete on a more level playing field again? It seems inevitable.

--Joe Jansen
Just some guy that uses Linux and Windows both.
 
C
Hi Mark

> Michael Griffin wrote ....
> <snip>
> Most people would be hard pressed to name 35 things of any kind they
> know about Windows. A lot of people want to use Windows because they
> figure they won't have to know anything about computers that way.
> <snip>
>
> Jeez Michael, you think an XP MCSE doesn't know how to lock down his own
> system?
> Are you suggesting that Linux administrators are more capable? more
> intelligent? better people?
>
> To suggest a great disservice has been created by suggesting Windows is
> "easy", is a ridiculous statement.
> You're second statement is correct, Windows is EXTREMELY complex.
> Anyone who thinks otherwise is an fool. Even my 80 year old mother (who
> is XP proficient) realizes how complicated Windows really is underneath
> those pretty images.
>
> You suggest that "Very few IT people really know much about Windows
> other than how to click on menus to setup a typical network ...."
> At least they can do it, which is more than what would happen if you
> handed Linux to them and asked them to perform the same functions.

You obviously haven't run Linux lately, it's widely held to be more
manageable, from a centralized IS viewpoint. Some folks might have
to crack a book, but I'm sure that wouldn't hurt them. And we'll give
them the book.

> OK ,,,, let's assume that at midnight tomorrow night, every MS OS and
> app where to disappear .... think the preponderance of Linux IT pro's
> and Linux apps could fill the void ??

Yes. No problem. And a complete turnover would rid us of an awful lot
of cruft and baggage.

> How long do you think it would take .... without some central Linux organization?

There would be activity beyond belief and massive capitalization. There would be a competitive fervor such as the world has never seen. Having
one central monopoly is what inhibits this. It wouldn't take very long with wide open opportunity, to fill the void. There is a very, very, long line of people who would gladly compete if they could. Tech stocks would go through the roof. Er, except one. Everyone else would benefit.

> Linux will NEVER become as accepted as Windows.
> It doesn't have the market clout, visible presence, financial backing,
> EULA's, NDA's, and a TON of lawyers, necessary to make it a world wide success.

That is simply hilarious, did you read that after you wrote it? I respectfully submit that the lack of all that crap is _why_ Linux _is_ a success. Folks are getting tired of being clouted, marketed to, coughing up that financial backing, signing their life away with totally one-sided licenses and needing lawyers. Not all of them,
certainly, but a lot of decision makers are in the crowd. If your company switches to Linux, your preference becomes moot.

> Sorry to bust your bubble, but unless some large unifying force brings
> the Linux community together, it'll never happen.

The community is that large force that keeps Linux together. It's been vastly more succesful than any other competitor. It would be foolish to
abandon a working strategy to give MS a convenient target to smash. You might want to check with Redmond if you don't think it's working.

Regards
cww
 
B
> <grin> I love posts like this........
>
> >>>>>>
Me too!
It should still be about choice.
The main thing with XP is that it does not allow certain PLC software to run.
Dual booting is required etc.
Yes its very nice not to have the blue screen of death anymore..... but isn't the "oh dear this application wont run anymore and will be shut down" message pretty much the same thing?
I personally like to use Linux whenever possible. Yes application s still crash. But they are fixable without shutting down the computer, after you've sent your "report" to MS.I've certainly learnt more doing this. I still have to use Windows at work, which will probably always be.
The next thing that Microsoft will do will be charging for additional "help" with applications. Because they wilfully leave certain things out.
Maybe i'm cynical, just wanted to comment.
Barry Newton
 
J

Justin Woodsman

Sorry New here so forgive any stuff ups..

I just wanted to say that (perhaps contrary) to the general jist of this thread..

In my opinion it's a really good thing that Microsoft (as much as this sounds wrong..) keeps the goal posts moving. Obviously, it's money driven but look at all the issues it develops - which equates to work and sales and thus momentum in our industry.

Even if it does mean you have to re-write something, if you've had it for so long its no longer supported I think you've done pretty well, and we can always improve and in most cases for less.

I'd probably be bankrupt if it weren't for all the work that MS generates, and it's not just the software it's the whole industry that gets carried with it.

I hope that I'm not totally alone on this.

Also for XP apps I'd hold on for at least another few years, alternatively there is VMware which can handle most apps that don't have custom cards. Even some custom cards now have USB equivalents..www.plccables.com.au

For the vast majority of PLC's AB, Siemens, Omron, Schneider, Mitsubishi, GE, etc there are clear upgrade paths and a whole industry for sideways movement on some of the majors eg S5 to Vipa etc...www.plchardware.com.au

Then where is gets tricky there are us engineers, and thousands of integrators and now a host of SCADA security experts..who get to play/work out the solutions if your into your career choice..

Thanks
 
Top